Jim Saah
"We had this thing, not punk, hardcore punk. And in retrospect it was pretty childish, because as I grew, I realized punk could be anything..."
Jim Saah is one of my photography heroes - his images of Void alone give me the chills. In my mind, he should be viewed in the same way people look at Ed Colver, Glen E. Friedman, Cynthia Connolly, Murray Bowles or any of the other names which commonly get thrown around as legends who documented the American hardcore punk scene in the 1980s. To me, his work manages to capture so much emotion and energy while the images remain razor sharp. He recently released a monograph of his work entitled In My Eyes which documents his work from 1982 through 1997 and I used it as an opportunity to reach out to discuss his work.
So to start off, what was your zine called?
The first one was called Zone Five or Zone V. But it was a photography, grayscale term. And it was a photo zine, fanzine, mostly photographs, interviews, scene reports ‘cause we didn’t have the internet back then, people had to tell you what was going on, who the bands were, stuff like that.
I did two issues of that, probably 1000 or a few. And then I did another fanzine that was kind of an arts, culture magazine, called Uno Mas. One more magazine,I did that for most of the 90’sAnd it always had a photo aspect, a photo essay in the back. But it had poetry, music-related stuff, articles, fiction. It was just kind of a popular culture kinda magazine.
Were into music already, and then you got into photography, and then you combined the two loves? What was your trajectory there?
Yeah. It happened at the same time. I was in high school, probably 10th grade, took a photography class, was getting into it. We didn’t really do anything with photography before that, except maybe take an Instamatic shot with my friends or something, I started, and I was getting into it. I was taking pictures of my friends and whatever the assignment was, still life, portrait. And then I went to my first punk rock show around the same time. And I didn’t take my camera to the first show, but it just blew me away how dynamic and what was going on, so I took it to the second show, and then I took it to every show after that.
And what was the first show?
The first show that I went to and didn’t photograph was a Minor Threat and Government Issue at Maryland University, the Student Union.
Which is quite a first show… (laughter)
It is quite a first show. I’m lucky it was such a great one, because it got me hooked. And Minor Threat ended up being one of my favorites. We would go see them any time they played. They even opened for Public Image one time, and the tickets were $12, which was just insane at the time. And we paid it just to see Minor Threat, ‘cause we didn’t really give two shits about Public Image... With time I ended up thinking they were an okay band, but you know, he’d play with his back to the audience, and it was just like, “Whatever.”
It seems like there is that break when hardcore came in, the older bands, kinda got pushed the wayside. And it’s crazy to me, because a lot of that stuff is only a few years old, but people were like, “Oh, this is like the equivalent of being into the Rolling Stones” or something at this point.
We had this thing, not punk, hardcore punk. And in retrospect it was pretty childish, because as I grew, I realized punk could be anything. Punk is an aesthetic, it was about doing what you want, even if you were a pop band. If you were just independent and following your muse and doing what you want, then it could be punk. And there were a bunch of bands in DC that ended up coming out of the punk scene that were just like pop bands and stuff. So it was a little silly, but at the time, we were super into… like The Sex Pistols were almost like dinosaurs. And plus, in hindsight, even then, it was pretty much just rock and roll. The lyrics were a lot different and maybe edgy and stuff, but the music was like blues-based rock.
You didn’t take a camera to the first show you went to, but what inspired you to bring a camera to the second show you went to?
I was supposed to be taking pictures of stuff that I was interested in, I was just so taken aback, I just felt like I had to capture it. I’m surprised that I had such a photographer’s drive being so new to photography, but it was like I had to photograph it and people... My friends would tell me, “Oh, leave the camera at home. Enjoy the show. Dance with us,” And whenever I did that, I regretted it, because I enjoyed the show less, because I paid more attention. It’s like they say, some of my friends were like, “You kind of missed the show taking pictures.” But I paid more attention, and listened to every note Waiting for that next drum break, ‘cause I know someone’s gonna jump or do something. And I just paid really close attention.
‘Cause you don’t wanna get kicked in the head or something, [laughter] right? I want to move over to the book and then also talk about Salad Days a little bit, if we could. So how did the book come about? Because I mean, you have images that are in Banned in DC?
Yeah, a lot.
And were you doing other things too, were you doing photography outside of music at that time?
Yeah, I pretty much decided early on that I wanted to be a professional photographer. And I started taking classes at a community college, and they had really good photography classes. I took pretty much every one they had, even if it was tabletop photography or stuff I knew I didn’t wanna do but I just built skills. Even four by five and there was a photojournalism one, which I really liked ‘cause that’s kind of what I went into, and portraiture and everything. So I just took all these classes and then I went out with my portfolio pretty much right out of high school started trying to get work with the City Paper, the Free Weekly, and other regional newspapers. And then I went to the Washington Post at one point, and they hired me as a freelancer. Luckily the guy looking at my portfolio, which was kind of a weird portfolio at the time, just had a lot of photographs from the classes I took. It really wasn’t focused, it was just all over the place. But he did like music and he did recognize some of the bands and he liked my music photography, so he gave me a job and then I started freelancing for the Washington Post. And then I was gonna go back to school to get the degree, but I ended up doing what I wanted the degree for so I just kept doing it.
I have been a working photographer since 1986. My first picture was... It could even be earlier, but that was the first picture I got published in The Washington Post in 1986. I was shooting from 1984 in the City Paper but I wouldn’t call myself professional. But then after that, I got more notoriety and then I started. It was a meager living for a few years, but it started me off as a professional photographer. And I’ve never done anything else. And I still shoot practically every day.
Didn’t you do a zine that was under the same title as the book?
Yeah. So what happened was, we were invited by an Argentine Film Festival to come show Salad Days in Buenos Aires, and they had state money. They actually fund the arts there and stuff, so they were able to fly us over and put us up and show the movie. So we’re like, “Hell yeah, we’ll go.” And we went and I met some great people. There was a guy that reached out before I went, he was involved with the film festival and friends with this other guy that was a bigger part of this film festival and kind of like the business guy, and he said, “Why don’t we do a fanzine for my... I got this little publishing company, we’ll do a fanzine and then I’ll sell it at the show and I’ll sell it around.”
And I said, “That’s cool.” The guy seemed nice, he reminded me of myself when I was younger, he’s very enthusiastic and doing a fanzine like I did and stuff. So I did it, he made like a thousand copies and he had it designed by someone that did a really nice job and it looked slick and it was a small little chapbook. And so then he said, “We should do a book sometime.” And I said, “Yeah, I don’t know.” I always wanted to do a book, but it was kind of a lot of work and then I did the fanzines for years, and that was so much work, and then I stopped doing that, and then I got married and I had a family and had to make more money to support them and everything, so it never really happened. And like you said, I had photographs in Banned In DC, Scott Crawford did Spoke, which was kind of a companion piece to Salad Days. Which I had a lot of photos in.
But then the guy kinda talked me into doing it. And he had a business partner that was willing to front the money. And I was like, “Alright, I like working with these guys, I trust them.” And so I just went ahead and did it. And then about 10 years earlier, I don’t know, 2010, 2011, I bought a scanner, and I just scanned in all my negatives over months and months. Just while I was doing other stuff, I could load two strips and let ‘em go. So that made it much easier, because if I had to do all that and then pick the photos for the book, and then, you know, work through a thousand stuff, I wouldn’t have done it. But so much of the hard part was done, so it was just a matter of going through it. I narrowed it down two or three times, and then got help from bands. I had so many Fugazi photos, like thousands. And I got it down to 200, and then I went over and sat down with an (MacKaye), and just went through ‘em, and he told me what he thought, and we discussed some things, why I wanted something, and he didn’t and vice versa. And I still... there’s so many... Even when the book was almost done, I realized I left out this band or that band, and the publisher and the designer was like, “Oh, you know, no, we’ll put it in the next book,” But I was adamant, I need this shot to go in the book! So they put up with me. And then there’s still things that I missed. I have a lot of posed shots that didn’t make it in. Ian asked me, “You had all these posed shots. I like candid stuff. And I’m like, “Yeah, I do too,” and there’s some in the book. It was really about the energy of the live show. And that’s what I wanted it to capture. I may put out a smaller book of that stuff.
What made something a shot that you wanted to have in the book? What was about the images themselves?
One of the big things I love about punk rock, coming from going to arena rock shows and stuff before that, was the connection between the artist and the audience, which you didn’t get, you were far away, and people were small, and they’re just playing the music, and you’re sitting in your seats watching. But punk rock show, you could get on the stage, you could sing along, It was a communal experience and an interactive experience. So I wanted to capture that, more so than just the bands. If you notice, looking through the book, I include the audience in a lot of photos. And that was a huge part. So when picking a photo, I really wanted it to make you... If you were there, I wanted you to say like, “Damn, that’s what it was like. That’s what it felt like.” And if you weren’t there, I wanted you to say, “Damn, I wish I was there ‘cause that looks awesome.” And I’ve gotten a lot of feedback like that, which is so gratifying. And also, the book is fun, because people like to look for themselves at shows. So it’s just a fun book, whether you were there or whether you just wanted to be there.
I think one of the things that’s interesting is your style of photography. I know you’re friends with Pat Graham, and his style is more that motion blur, drag the shutter - I feel like you get that same level of energy that he does, but with these incredibly sharp photos where if not everything is in focus, most of everything is in focus...
That’s what the guy that reviewed my show in the Washington Post, said too, That I can show motion and action, but then there’s something sharp. And that’s how I always felt, like if... People have had to tell me, “This is a great shot,” but I’ll be like, “Well, it’s too soft.” And they’re like, “It doesn’t matter.” like the woman that shot The Clash London Calling photo, which ended up being one of the most iconic rock pictures in history, she (Pennie Smith) didn’t even wanna give it to them because it wasn’t sharp, there’s really nothing sharp in that photo but it doesn’t really matter
Was this a conscious thing you were doing when you were younger and shooting, or is it just the way it worked out at the time, then you eventually developed the style?
I was a complete amateur, I think it would be a little revisionist history if I said that’s what I went in looking for. I just went in looking to get good shots. And I don’t really even know what good shots might have been when I started it. But when I started getting those shots that were blur, like had a blurred guitar or an arm, but a sharp face or microphone or something, I liked those. And then I started trying to do more of that. So, yeah, I grew into that style.
Did you do everything in black and white in the ‘80s and was that a conscious thing? Was it you just didn’t want to do color? Was it, just because developing your own film in black and white is much easier than shooting in color?
It’s a good question. I never really thought about it ‘cause I certainly could have bought color film. And a lot of people did, but it was all about the craft for me. So I wanted to develop it. I wanted to print it myself. So it was part of control in the craft and plus I just loved black and white photography - I still do. So yeah, I wanted to control the craft and do it all myself, and I did take a color class and I did process some color myself, but it was a pain in the ass and I didn’t like it. I wasn’t good at it.
Do you have a particular image of yours from the book that you feel is like the image, like your strongest image, your favorite image and like, if so, why?
Yeah, there’s a couple, there’s a photo of Ian MacKaye and Minor Threat at Wilson Center, he’s on the stage, but he’s basically just laying on a pile of people. And he’s singing and all the people around him are singing. He can’t even find the mic, it’s gone, you know? And that was just indicative to me of the joy and chaos of a punk rock show. A very definitive picture for me. There’s another one, which is a little weird because I like taking pictures of slam dancers as much as the rest of the people or thrash or whatever you wanna call them. It was definitely part of the scene early on. And it was a wholesome part early on. I mean, everyone was having fun.
It wasn’t agro. If you fell down, people picked you up. And so there was this shot I took and oddly enough, it was like my, the first show I photographed which was a hardcore matinee with Scream, GI and Discharge from England. And the matinees usually didn’t have national acts.
But this one did. I actually had a little battle with Ian about that. He’s like, “that wasn’t a matinee” like, “We never had a national acts as matinees. I booked those shows”, and I was like, “All right.” So I reached out to a few people that I know collected a lot of flyers and Kenny Inouye sent me a flyer for it. You know, it kind of rocks Ian’s world. He’s like, “Oh, you’re right, I’m losing it.” I’m like, “Oh, I don’t mean to make you make you feel bad, but it’s just like, I’m pretty sure it was a matinee.” But anyway... It’s a guy jumping and he jumped towards the pole that was an aspect of the old 930 club and then pushed off of it into the pit. And it’s just like a who’s who of DC punk rockers in the pit. There’s like Brendan Canty and Alec MacKaye and Chris Bald and Mark Haggerty. Just all these people, it was from the back of the 930, so you saw the whole room and it was just another definitive picture of what it was like. You could see it and smell it when you look at that picture.
I think it’s kinda crazy that your first two shows were one with Minor Threat and GI and the next one was Scream and Discharge.
Yeah, there was good shit happening in DC. (laughter)
I’m curious who your photography heroes are? Be it contemporaries that were shooting at the same time as you or…
Well, interesting question. At the time, I didn’t have too many rock photographer heroes. I discovered all the 60s guys, Mick Rock, and all those guys, a little bit later. I saw those pictures of Zeppelin and The Who and all this stuff. And Bob Gruen is probably... If I had a hero, it would probably be Bob Gruen. Because he’s kind of more of my style and more of the... I mean, he did all the punk stuff. And I think that’s what he loves, but he also fucking shot Led Zeppelin and all the big guys, too. So I would have to say he’s probably my biggest hero. At the time, the only photozine that existed to my knowledge was Glen Friedman’s My Rules. And I did get that and I did like it. And I wouldn’t call him a hero, but I typically sort of modeled my photozine after it. He says he created the word photozine, so it didn’t exist. I don’t know if that’s true or not.
As I developed as a photographer a little bit, I wanted to be like a documentarian. I liked more photographers like Robert Capa. His thing was, if the photo isn’t good, you’re not close enough. That’s how he ended up getting killed, getting too close to the action, but stuff like that, I was really gravitating to, and it’s sort of similar because there’s action. And I mean, the stakes are higher. But I did like a lot of documentary photographers. Sebastião Salgado, I love him. Just environmental portraits of people, workers and things, I love that stuff too.
So the book goes from ‘82 to ‘97? I like the fact that you did it in just alphabetical order - was that a decision that was made by the designers, or was that your idea, or how was that approached?
It was my idea, just because… It was just an egalitarian way to do it. I thought about a couple of things. Some of the bigger bands that were most important to me, like Fugazi and Minor Threat. Those letters, put them sort of near the middle or whatever. So that worked out for me. And if you were just sort of people were looking for a band to show someone, it would be easy for them to find it. I just didn’t want to debate with other people and try and figure out what would be the best way, and just alphabetical was just easier.
Is 1997, a cut off year for you shooting music, or is it just that you just needed an end cap?
I just needed an end cap, and I wanted everything in the book to be on film. There’s no digital in it, and I still shoot music to this day. I could have another book from 1997 to the present, and it’ll be a lot different. I went to see my son’s band, which was not a hardcore band. But then another band played the show that was a hardcore band, right in line with the DC aesthetic. There are even some kids of DC musicians and stuff. And then it was in the basement of St. Steven’s Church where I saw a bunch of hardcore shows, 30 years earlier. And these kids were good players, and the frontman was going nutso. It was great, it totally brought me back and I felt the energy and stuff.
But there was a point in time when it was basically ignored, right? It was always Sex Pistols break up in San Francisco, and then fast forward to Nirvana, right? And it missed that whole 80s era that... The reason why most music culture exists now is because of the era.
Yeah.
A lot of that kind of structure, venues, being able to do things yourself, the independent record labels, etc, is all because of that. But also you took a lot of pictures of Void, so you can print a whole book of just that and I’ll buy it.
Yeah. I mean, talk about energy, that band was just explosive. We really felt like something was gonna combust. or something was just gonna blow up, or catch fire or something. It sounds hyperbolic, but it really is just the pounding of the music in your chest, and everything. It really kind of felt that way.